Wooden Gutters

Talking about Wooden gutters

I was reading a joinery manual from the 19th century that described detailing for timber rainwater goods and wondered when was the last time anyone saw a house with wooden gutters?

“Anyone know anything about wooden gutters,” I asked.

Tony replied, “In the Leeds area wooden gutters were commonplace and softwood ones could be obtained off the shelf from wood yards.”

"Get hold of the heartwood of a durable timber species that has fairly dense and a low movement class," ventured Ivor. "Sweet chestnut is the only UK or European grown timber that meets that spec. A suitable recycled timber is probably the best option - pitch pine beams would be perfect."

“Generally made from elm,” Andrew replied and continued, “the elm ones I have seen were a simple 'vee' section from 2 boards, elm being good as it remains 'tight' when wet”

David asked, “What information are you looking for? The only wooden gutters I've seen in the UK are U shaped made from three pieces, sometimes lined with lead. In the USA there are sawmills that do a moulded shape but I've not seen that here,” and he suggested looking at the Blue Ox Mill website.

This is a firm in California that still uses moulding machines from the early years of the 20^th century and they boast the world’s largest collection of cutters. They make gutters out of redwood with a hollow cut out, the exact profile being anything you like.

Middi started reminiscing.

“My father used to own a greenhouse block 100 feet long, it was build in the 1930s, we demolished them in 1982, and were build out of straight grain pinewood. These gutters were approx. 6 by 4 inch, formed out of three wood sections with the base tongue and grooved into the sides and nailed. Every 6 foot along there was a wood restrain nailed across the top and the inside was lined with thick tar. The outside was lead white painted like the rest of the houses. Those gutters were about the only thing which were still in working order when we demolished the greenhouses.”

“You can grow lovely crops of grass and trees in them,” added Hazel, helpfully, “there was a good crop in my wooden gutters.”

“I expect maintenance is the key - you don't want leaves to accumulate which would allow permanent damp patches,” I commented. Has your house still got them?" I asked.

"No," she replied, "My wooden gutters went the first winter that I was in the house. The water dripping through the bottom, the changing colour of the wall paper in the wall beside them and the abundant plant life decreed that they went - before they got listed as SSSIs. I had to go for black placky. This was 25 years ago and those gutters have again been renewed when the roof was redone last December. I didn't realise it was in with the price. I suppose it covered the roofer in case they caused any damage to the gutters."

Paul seemed more enthusiastic, “I’ve come across the idea of wooden gutters before and really like the idea. I’ve been thinking of ways to do it that could be cost effective enough to offer it as a general building option for clients.”

“Well I’m thinking about making wooden gutters for a building I’m working on,” I told him.

“Have you got any ideas of how you are going to go about building them? Can you tell me what kind of treatment and preparation the wood requires? Would green oak warp the gutter?”

“I'll be making mine out of oak,” I replied. “Elm is hard to come by now and I’ve got lots of oak already. It’s well seasoned. I suppose green oak might warp and mess up the fall if it bent the wrong way. I reckon they will be the greenest solution and should last longer than PVC. They might even look nice.”

Tony said, “Round the corner from where I live is a Lutyens house with its original oak gutters still there.”

“There we are then, they do last longer than plastic.”

“The ones in Leeds,” continued Tony, “were untreated softwood simply hollowed out and mitred at the corners. Drill a big hole where you want an outlet.

Keith muttered, “Wooden gutters are so common in Leeds I believe Jewson stock them!”

Tony ignored the interruption, “The oak ones on the Lutyens house are two pieces nailed together at the bottom to form a kind of vee section. Remarkably they are held up on wooden props built vertically into brick sacraments.”

“I haven't quite decided how to make mine yet. I'll use oak, because that's what I happen to have lots of. I said. “A simple V-shape formed from two boards sounds like the least work.”

“Amazing!” Tom joined in. “Can anyone explain why this apparently barmy idea works - why doesn't it rot?

Tony answered him, “I think that it’s all to do with the paint! When painted wood gets wet the water can't get out so it goes rotten pretty fast. And please don't say then use micro porous treatment because the story is the same it will hold in enough water to cause rot if some water can get under it. But these here gutters in Leeds don't get painted! So although they can get wet they also dry back out and thus don't rot.

“I once saw some softwood windows in a 1930's house that had never been painted apart from when they were new - all the paint had fallen off years ago and not a trace of rotten wood could I find on any of the windows.”

“Yes, Tony,” I agreed, “I'm sure you are right about the paint. Paint is the chief villain when it comes to rotting wood. It seals the water in. I only use real linseed oil paint on my oak windows when clients need them painted at all. Linseed oil paint is more vapour permeable than the so-called micro porous modern paints. And it bonds better as the oil soaks right into the wood. I reckon oak, elm, Douglas fir, larch, Scott's pine, pitch pine they can all be left out in the rain with impunity. Rainwater goods tend to be high up in windy locations they will stay very dry most of the time.”

"The inside of the gutters was sometimes sealed with pitch," added Ivor.

Joe, who has a dissertation to write for his BSc Construction Management, chosen subject rainwater recycling systems, said, “I’m really struggling to find material. I have to say that I have come across wooden guttering too. A few years ago I was involved in a project in North Derbyshire. The house was in a conservation area and was Grade II listed so all works had to be sympathetic to the existing. Wooden guttering was on the original and I had the great task of replacing them.

“The method I used was to construct a simple box gutter out of three pieces of eight by one inch oak in 5 metre lengths.”

“Three at eight by one sounds huge,” interrupted Tom, “I was picturing more like two at five by one in a vee.”

Joe continued, “This was then supported on the original box gutter supports, which still had the original fall on them. A simple shoe was made at the end of each run. The house was literally next to a river and the rainwater went directly into that without the need for down pipes even!

“I have to say, had I known you could buy wooden gutter it would have been far easier.”

Tom put in again, “Yes, this is fascinating. Of course, wooden boats don't rot - until they do. What makes a boat rot? The key with semi-durable timber like Douglas fir, but not builders merchant softwood, it's OK untreated as long as it doesn't sit in a soggy sandwich, water can drain out of the joints, and it can dry out as soon as weather permits.”

“How are the lengths jointed together?” continued Tom. “How watertight would a couple of boards vee'd together be? How do clinker boats stay watertight - lots of copper nails cleated over on the back? Boats only stay watertight if they're kept wet?

“That Blue Ox Mill website explains how to joint eh lengths of gutter, I said. “You cut the pieces to a forty-five degree mitre and gouge out a bit of the wood on the inside and fill this with caulk. It’s a bit hard to explain but there’s a good diagram on their website. It leaves the joint sealed at the top where the water flows, even if the wood shrinks and expands, yet the joint itself is free to drain so can dry out to prevent rot.”

“Clare said, “We’re having to replace a timber gutter which is very high up and difficult to reach. It’s twenty-two feet long and we had it put there 15 years ago. It is now leaking very badly through what appears to be a split. This is our fault in that we did not push local roofer to carry out routine maintenance to the gutter.”

“Fifteen years doesn't sound like a very long lifespan for the timber gutter,” Responded Keith. “I can only assume the timber was substandard and poorly installed. Next time it may pay to source a higher quality timber and only employ someone that can demonstrate experience of installing timber guttering.”

“We have been offered a replacement in timber or a new product, which is plastic and made to the same profile or shape as the timber. Much lighter and easier to fit and not needing the same maintenance.

“But we re not sure about using the plastic. It is a very old house and we always repair even if this raises eyebrows in trades people.

“The roofer was surprised when I told him that the plastic gutter was made of oil. He thought it was better to use plastic as the world is running out of trees! Hmmm. Visions of a plastic mine.”

“I would now go for wood,” mused Nicola, “it just creates a different feel, of health I find, and things being connected in the appropriate fashion. I always enjoy my Greek-holidays, where on the small islands people don't use plastic. It gives me a feeling of being closer to nature that way.

"Fifteen years would actually be about the time I would give plastic guttering before it starts leaking and in need of ongoing yearly maintenance,” said Keith.

He was warming to his theme, “The problem with plastic is that it is affected by sunlight and temperature fluctuation. As temperatures change so the plastic expands and contracts. This acts to wear out the rubber seals whilst at the same time the sunlight causes the plasticizers in the PVC to migrate out thus causing it to become brittle so before too long maintenance of changing the seals becomes more difficult and the risk of cracking the gutter increases. I have never actually seen seals for sale so you always need to replace the component.

“Also the noise from the plastic guttering moving on a warm but cloudy and sunny day is really annoying as the sun goes in and out behind the clouds.”

Charles pulled out a photo. "In my part of North Derbyshire it's called spouting. I've one small section left on my house but many round my way still have it all up. The gutter is made from shaped lengths of Russian Red Deal and can still be bought in Chesterfield. Yes I know it needs painting!"

"Might actually be better left unpainted," I remarked. "You don't want to seal any moisture in"

"Mind you," I went on, "I saw a leaflet from Leeds City Council giving advice about gutters, which said Cast iron and wooden gutters should be painted on a regular basis. Plastic guttering is less hardwearing and will deteriorate with age, so it will have to be replaced more often.'

"Looks like Leeds is the wooden gutter capital. It's good to see that the Council reckon they last longer than plastic."

"And at Saltaire, near Bradford, there's a row of mid 19th century terraced houses that have wooden brackets for the gutters. They're mentioned in the list descriptions and, also in Bradford there is this list description. 'Nos. 5, 6 and 7 East Squire Lane. Circa 1800 pair of 2-storey sandstone "brick" cottages. Stone slate roofs with wood gutter eaves; central chimney stack."

Mike said, "I know of two companies close to me, both located in Bradford, that sell them, Uriah Woodhead & Arnold Laver's."

John recounted his youth, "I was brought up in the 1960s in an early eighteenth century terrace in West Yorkshire (actually I suspect it was originally a longhouse that had been converted into cottages at the start of the C18) that had wooden gutters front and back. Some of the terrace dated from later - 1767 I think. All 7 cottages had stone supports built in just below the roof for wooden guttering to sit on. I think this was fairly common around the Halifax area.

"The guttering was approximately 6"wide by 4" deep with a flat external bottom and back and a curvy (ogee?) front. The inside was hollowed out into a fairly deep semicircular channel. It came in approximately 12 foot lengths if I remember correctly, each length made out of a single piece of timber, but I don't know what variety. It was readily available at the local timber merchants. It wasn't easy to get new pieces up as it weighed a ton!

"I spent a fair few days of my youth tarring the insides and painting the outsides which seemed to be a fairly effective maintenance routine as we only replaced two lengths out of eight in the 20 years after my parents moved in. I blush to admit that my father then had it all replaced with aluminium guttering extruded on site, which had a very similar external profile but was certainly not authentic."

Richy is another West Yorkshire voice, "Where I live, Ilkley in Wharfedale, wooden guttering or 'spouting' as we call it is commonplace, so much so that sadly pvc spouting is now manufactured out of twin wall pvc to the same profile. When I was an apprentice, 20 odd years ago, we bought the stuff in 22 ft lengths of red wood in 3 different sections and tarred the interior, painted the front and the the underside and left the back unpainted 'to breathe', joints were lapped and leaded and we used to fix it dead level so water sat in the gutter as this was considered a good thing."

It seems that some think wood better than gold for rainwater goods. This from Wahhabi: Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab frequently said, "If I could, I would demolish the Prophet's shrine. I would throw away the golden gutter on the Kaba and put a wooden gutter in its place."

And wooden gutters have contributed to English case law. In Carstairs -v- Taylor 1871 The plaintiffs were tenants of the ground floor of a building. The defendants occupied the top floor. A rat gnawed through a box in which rain water was collected from the roof, causing a leak into the plaintiff's property, causing damage. No negligence was shown. Held: The defendant was not liable. He had not brought water to the place from which it escaped into the plaintiff's premises. A rat gnawing a hole in a wooden gutter box counted as an Act of God. Which, by the by, shows that God is a rat. But jest not, the case was cited in the Judgement of the House of Lords in 2003 in the case of Transco plc v Stockport Borough Council.

The Crystal Palace had 24 miles of wooden gutters!

S. Djärv Hantverk AB
Hand Forged Tools

Traditionally referred to as a gutter adze this adze is hand forged in Sweden from top quality steel. The Gutter Adze was traditionally used for hollowing out the trough of wooden gutters.

This is a gutter moulding plane from about 1850, made by J.Stevens of Boston, Massachusetts, USA.

According to Bryan Little's The Building of Bath (1947): The stone parapet had first become a standard feature of Georgian houses in London since the London Building Acts of 1707 outlawed projecting wooden eaves in order to prevent fire spreading from one house to another. This meant that wooden gutters had to be set back behind a stone or brick parapet. Builders in Bath, however, copied the London practice because they wished their houses to be as 'modern' as possible.

Here's a picture of a modern wooden gutter:

Ringwood Waldorf School